Site management software

[Greg V. Raven]

Since upgrading to Leopard, Adobe GoLive 6 crashes much more
frequently than it did. I do all of my website development in BBEdit,
but when I get a new customer with an existing site, I almost always
have to bring order from chaos, and GoLive does some of these site-
management tasks better than BBEdit.

So it's time to update my site management software. GoLive seems to be
deprecated in favor of Dreamweaver, but either is expensive. I'm
guessing the benefits of Dreamweaver are its integration with BBEdit
and its goal of using web standards.

How does everyone else handle massive changes to static websites that
aren't built with BBEdit include statements, as any good site should be?

I'm already using various other tools such as Linklint to keep atop my
BBEdit-based sites, but I've yet to come across a way of -- for
example -- promoting or demoting a folder within an HTML hierarchy
without having to change all the in and out links manually, unless I'm
using GoLive.

I look forward to your suggestions.

[Datatude]

Post by Greg V. Raven
Since upgrading to Leopard, Adobe GoLive 6 crashes much more
frequently than it did. I do all of my website development in BBEdit,
but when I get a new customer with an existing site, I almost always
have to bring order from chaos, and GoLive does some of these
site-management tasks better than BBEdit.
So it's time to update my site management software. GoLive seems to be
deprecated in favor of Dreamweaver, but either is expensive. I'm
guessing the benefits of Dreamweaver are its integration with BBEdit
and its goal of using web standards.
How does everyone else handle massive changes to static websites that
aren't built with BBEdit include statements, as any good site should be?
I'm already using various other tools such as Linklint to keep atop my
BBEdit-based sites, but I've yet to come across a way of -- for
example -- promoting or demoting a folder within an HTML hierarchy
without having to change all the in and out links manually, unless I'm
using GoLive.
I look forward to your suggestions.

I use Dreamweaver (with BBEdit, of course!, as my preferred integrated
text editor). Beyond the benefits of Dreamweaver that you cite, it also
will update links if you move files/folders around in the site
hierarchy. Further, for projects on which you are not the only web
developer, you can with a single click set up a check-out/in system so
that a page being edited by one developer will not simultaneously be
checked out by another.

As for the cost, $399 for a new license does not seem "expensive" to my
mind, considering that this is a tool you use to make money? Even if
only for personal use, how much is your time worth and how much time
might DW save you with its page authoring, php/css/javascript etc
integration, and site management features? Perhaps they even offer an
upgrade path between GoLive and DW (I don't see that upgrade path on
their site, but they are offering very fair upgrade policy for
purchasers of earlier version of Macromedia products, including the very
aged Studio MX that I bought all the way back in, um, 2002? -- so you
might wish to phone them and ask a live salesperson whether you can
cross-upgrade your GoLive license to DW)

good luck!

kazar
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[Greg V. Raven]

By "expensive" I mean that I would use it mainly when I wanted to move
files and folders around without having to chase down every affected
link.

Dreamweaver's validation feature is beyond annoying, and I can't get
its "includes" feature to work to save myself. The tag completion is
nice, but I already know how to apply tags in BBEdit.

Therefore, I'd be paying a couple hundred bucks to buy a piece of
software just in case I need to move a folder of files in some future
project.

I think instead that I'll put in a feature request to Bare Bones to
have them add similar functionality to BBEdit.

Thanks for your feedback, though.

Post by Datatude

Post by Greg V. Raven
Since upgrading to Leopard, Adobe GoLive 6 crashes much more
frequently than it did. I do all of my website development in
BBEdit, but when I get a new customer with an existing site, I
almost always have to bring order from chaos, and GoLive does some
of these site-management tasks better than BBEdit.
So it's time to update my site management software. GoLive seems to
be deprecated in favor of Dreamweaver, but either is expensive. I'm
guessing the benefits of Dreamweaver are its integration with
BBEdit and its goal of using web standards.
How does everyone else handle massive changes to static websites
that aren't built with BBEdit include statements, as any good site
should be?
I'm already using various other tools such as Linklint to keep atop
my BBEdit-based sites, but I've yet to come across a way of -- for
example -- promoting or demoting a folder within an HTML hierarchy
without having to change all the in and out links manually, unless
I'm using GoLive.
I look forward to your suggestions.

I use Dreamweaver (with BBEdit, of course!, as my preferred
integrated text editor). Beyond the benefits of Dreamweaver that you
cite, it also will update links if you move files/folders around in
the site hierarchy. Further, for projects on which you are not the
only web developer, you can with a single click set up a check-out/
in system so that a page being edited by one developer will not
simultaneously be checked out by another.
As for the cost, $399 for a new license does not seem "expensive" to
my mind, considering that this is a tool you use to make money? Even
if only for personal use, how much is your time worth and how much
time might DW save you with its page authoring, php/css/javascript
etc integration, and site management features? Perhaps they even
offer an upgrade path between GoLive and DW (I don't see that
upgrade path on their site, but they are offering very fair upgrade
policy for purchasers of earlier version of Macromedia products,
including the very aged Studio MX that I bought all the way back in,
um, 2002? -- so you might wish to phone them and ask a live
salesperson whether you can cross-upgrade your GoLive license to DW)
good luck!
kazar
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[Walter Ian Kaye]

At 10:55 a -0800 12/06/2007, Greg V. Raven didst inscribe upon an

Post by Greg V. Raven
By "expensive" I mean that I would use it mainly when I wanted to
move files and folders around without having to chase down every
affected link.

I don't know how well it works, but I just saw this on Macintouch:
http://www.panic.com/coda/

The docs don't seem to mention anything about updating links, so you
might want to try it and see (or write and ask them, I
guess...whichever's easier, hehe).

-boo

[Errol Sayre]

IF every link really is unique... (i.e. you don't use just relative
urls and nest content into directories) you may be able to get by with
a few global find and replace calls.

E.g.

Move file1.html to file2.html
Find and replace in multiple files to change every file1.html to
file2.html
Repeat with the next file

Additionally, BBEdit does have the Markup > Check > Folder Links and
Site Links options which would help with post move cleanups...

Post by Walter Ian Kaye
At 10:55 a -0800 12/06/2007, Greg V. Raven didst inscribe upon an

Post by Greg V. Raven
By "expensive" I mean that I would use it mainly when I wanted to
move files and folders around without having to chase down every
affected link.

http://www.panic.com/coda/
The docs don't seem to mention anything about updating links, so you
might want to try it and see (or write and ask them, I
guess...whichever's easier, hehe).
-boo
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[Michael Heth]

Post by Greg V. Raven
Since upgrading to Leopard, Adobe GoLive 6 crashes much more
frequently than it did.

My Golive CS2 would crash more often if Photoshop CS2 was also open
but was stable when running by itself (other apps could be open but
not PS CS2). This is on Tiger.

If all you need it for is the link management and you don't want to
pony up dough then you might experiment to see if it will fly if it
is the only thing open. Closing down some apps for a few minutes
seems painless enough to me.

The Golive 9 is (seemingly) 99% the same as the CS2 version. The DW
CS3 tryout does seem to have enough lights and whistles to get me to
spend the dough as it will play Flash in the editor and do a lot of
other time saving things. But it too crashes on Tiger (from time to
time). So new version does not = high stability (necessarily).

M./

[Patrick Gilmour]

I think once you get used to using BBEdit for this, it's as good a
solution as the GUI editors offer. I own DW CS3 and rarely use it for
this (got it as part of the Creative Suite). And, incidentally, I
asked the same question as you are asking about 2 years ago in this
very list!!!

Pat

Post by Michael Heth

Post by Greg V. Raven
Since upgrading to Leopard, Adobe GoLive 6 crashes much more
frequently than it did.

My Golive CS2 would crash more often if Photoshop CS2 was also open
but was stable when running by itself (other apps could be open but
not PS CS2). This is on Tiger.
If all you need it for is the link management and you don't want to
pony up dough then you might experiment to see if it will fly if it
is the only thing open. Closing down some apps for a few minutes
seems painless enough to me.
The Golive 9 is (seemingly) 99% the same as the CS2 version. The DW
CS3 tryout does seem to have enough lights and whistles to get me to
spend the dough as it will play Flash in the editor and do a lot of
other time saving things. But it too crashes on Tiger (from time to
time). So new version does not = high stability (necessarily).
M./
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[Walter Ian Kaye]

At 06:19 p -0500 12/06/2007, Patrick Gilmour didst inscribe upon an

Post by Patrick Gilmour
I think once you get used to using BBEdit for this, it's as good a
solution as the GUI editors offer. I own DW CS3 and rarely use it
for this (got it as part of the Creative Suite). And, incidentally,
I asked the same question as you are asking about 2 years ago in
this very list!!!

You sure about that? I just checked my archives, and don't see any
posts from you before 2007 (I checked back to Jan. 2004). Did you
change your name? :-)

[Patrick Gilmour]

I'm sure.

But I'm so old 2002 feels like a couple of years ago. And it was the
BBEdit Scripting List - my apologies ;-)

Here's the post (April 21st 2002)

Sorry to bring up a done-to-death subject but after looking through
the
Is there a way with BBEdit or a plug-in or a small stand-alone
application
that can be used to update links in files that are moved?
For ex. I have a file called edit.html with a ton of links to other
pages at
the same level as it. I move it into a folder on that level and I
want the
links to update like they would if it were moved in GoLive or
Dreamweaver's
Finder-like window.
I normally do a multi-file search on <a herf=" and replace with <a
herf=../
but this isn't always a good idea. Also I have folders with 200+
pages in
them that I sometime want to duplicate into a folder at a different
level.
I don't want to invest in DreamWeaver or GoLive just for this
functionality.
Any ideas? Can it be done with BBEdit's Disk Browser? I can't see how.
Thanks for any help.
Pat Gilmour
------------------------------------------------------------------------
MetaClarity Ltd
At 06:19 p -0500 12/06/2007, Patrick Gilmour didst inscribe upon an

Post by Patrick Gilmour
I think once you get used to using BBEdit for this, it's as good a
solution as the GUI editors offer. I own DW CS3 and rarely use it
for this (got it as part of the Creative Suite). And,
incidentally, I asked the same question as you are asking about 2
years ago in this very list!!!

You sure about that? I just checked my archives, and don't see any
posts from you before 2007 (I checked back to Jan. 2004). Did you
change your name? :-)
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[Walter Ian Kaye]

At 07:38 p -0500 12/06/2007, Patrick Gilmour didst inscribe upon an

Post by Patrick Gilmour
I'm sure.
But I'm so old 2002 feels like a couple of years ago. And it was
the BBEdit Scripting List - my apologies ;-)
Here's the post (April 21st 2002)

Hehehe, OK. Um, did you by any chance receive an answer to it? ;)

[Patrick Gilmour]

Still waiting...

Post by Walter Ian Kaye
At 07:38 p -0500 12/06/2007, Patrick Gilmour didst inscribe upon an

Post by Patrick Gilmour
I'm sure.
But I'm so old 2002 feels like a couple of years ago. And it was
the BBEdit Scripting List - my apologies ;-)
Here's the post (April 21st 2002)

Hehehe, OK. Um, did you by any chance receive an answer to it? ;)
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[Greg V. Raven]

I use BBEdit more than I use any other piece of software I have, and I
have a lot of software and I spend a lot of hours in front of my
computer. It's not a matter of getting used to it, it's a matter of
wanted the computer to keep track of things I know it can keep track
of, so I can do more creative things with my brain-power and time.

Again, if I've developed the site, using BBEdit to make all the
changes that come with moving files and folders is usually not that
onerous. However, when I pick up a new client, I don't want to have to
read through the entire site before I can get down to business. On
Monday, for example, I picked up a new client whose existing site has
2,000+ files, and the site was a mess. In two days using mostly
BBEdit, I had it almost completely whipped into shape. I had to use
Renamer to trim down a couple hundred of the file names, which is
fine, and I used GoLive 6 to do gross rearranging.

I'm just spoiled by BBEdit, though, so I'd like a BBEdit-like way of
moving around files and folders without my having to clean up the link
mess afterwards. Apparently, such a facility does not exist yet.

Post by Patrick Gilmour
I think once you get used to using BBEdit for this, it's as good a
solution as the GUI editors offer. I own DW CS3 and rarely use it
for this (got it as part of the Creative Suite). And, incidentally,
I asked the same question as you are asking about 2 years ago in
this very list!!!
Pat

Post by Michael Heth

Post by Greg V. Raven
Since upgrading to Leopard, Adobe GoLive 6 crashes much more
frequently than it did.

My Golive CS2 would crash more often if Photoshop CS2 was also open
but was stable when running by itself (other apps could be open but
not PS CS2). This is on Tiger.
If all you need it for is the link management and you don't want to
pony up dough then you might experiment to see if it will fly if it
is the only thing open. Closing down some apps for a few minutes
seems painless enough to me.
The Golive 9 is (seemingly) 99% the same as the CS2 version. The DW
CS3 tryout does seem to have enough lights and whistles to get me
to spend the dough as it will play Flash in the editor and do a lot
of other time saving things. But it too crashes on Tiger (from time
to time). So new version does not = high stability (necessarily).
M./
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[Walter Ian Kaye]

At 06:51 p -0800 12/06/2007, Greg V. Raven didst inscribe upon an

Post by Greg V. Raven
I'm just spoiled by BBEdit, though, so I'd like a BBEdit-like way of
moving around files and folders without my having to clean up the
link mess afterwards. Apparently, such a facility does not exist
yet.

Gee... I can't find one either.

One could write a script to walk the hierarchy of a folder to be
moved, build all three types of URLs to the file(s) (relative,
root-relative, and full), and then do a multi-file search/replace.

That's probably what most people^H^H^H^H^H^Hgeeks do.

But it would be nice to have a special-purpose tool that works fast.

[After Hours]

Post by Michael Heth

Post by Greg V. Raven
Since upgrading to Leopard, Adobe GoLive 6 crashes much more
frequently than it did.

My Golive CS2 would crash more often if Photoshop CS2 was also open
but was stable when running by itself (other apps could be open but
not PS CS2). This is on Tiger.
If all you need it for is the link management and you don't want to
pony up dough then you might experiment to see if it will fly if it
is the only thing open. Closing down some apps for a few minutes
seems painless enough to me.
The Golive 9 is (seemingly) 99% the same as the CS2 version. The DW
CS3 tryout does seem to have enough lights and whistles to get me to
spend the dough as it will play Flash in the editor and do a lot of
other time saving things. But it too crashes on Tiger (from time to
time). So new version does not = high stability (necessarily).
M./

Greg could also go to eBay and upgrade to CS2 to save money if he is
on a budget. Using AuctionSieve and Jbidwatcher, he could bide his
time and capture an agreeable auction. Or he could partition his
Mac's hard drive, reinstall Tiger and run Golive6 if that's his
passion with a reboot. For my work system (PB G4/867), I have two 80
Gb partitions, one for Tiger and one for Leopard. They reference the
same documents folder via a symlink, as I have Photoshop 7 and similar
issues. But since the vast majority of my image work is done in
GraphicConverter, I don't reboot in Tiger often and PS7 is the only
app that got left behind in the Leopard migration.

An added bonus to moving to CS2 is that menumachine continues to
work. I don't know if that product works in CS3 or not, but I'm not
willing to give Adobe the cash to find out. A pseudo-monopoly on
graphics packages and pricing to match doesn't mean Adobe should be
sued, but that we should support functional shareware alternatives.
And while Adobe may be 'bad' with regard to their pricing, they are
very consumer-friendly when it comes to license transfer --- far more
so than the likes of Quark or some other publishers. Buying a used
copy of CS2 will save Greg money and recycle a legit version from
someone who no longer wants/needs it. Adobe's policy on this is
refreshingly realistic.

As others have mentioned, rather than have this 'feature' added into
BBEdit (a text editor, not intended as a Finder file replacement
tool), there are multiple ways to easily restructure a collection of
web files and folders. Using the Finder to relocate the folder
itself, and absolute URL hrefs, and find/replace solves the problem
nearly as quickly as GoLive. Coding websites to use tools such as php
includes makes for one-stop editing, as well.

Hope that sparks some ideas for you, Greg.

vail

[Greg V. Raven]

Well, BBEdit already checks links and does other things that a pure
text editor wouldn't do. I think of BBEdit more as a programmer's text-
based editor, which opens the door for utilities such as this.

As I mentioned originally, the problem does not arise with sites I've
created, because I make heavy use of include files. Absolute URLs do
get around this problem, but create other problems. I suppose the
answer is to switch to root URLs and bite the bullet on the issues
that arise as a result.

[snip]
As others have mentioned, rather than have this 'feature' added into
BBEdit (a text editor, not intended as a Finder file replacement
tool), there are multiple ways to easily restructure a collection of
web files and folders. Using the Finder to relocate the folder
itself, and absolute URL hrefs, and find/replace solves the problem
nearly as quickly as GoLive. Coding websites to use tools such as
php includes makes for one-stop editing, as well.
Hope that sparks some ideas for you, Greg.
vail
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[Patrick Gilmour]

Hi,

I actually posted this request on the Yojimbo list months back but as
I'm still looking for a good solution I thought I'd try my luck with
the BBEdit list as there will be more coders here.

Basically, I have a folder called "Code Library" that is full of
subfolders, "AJAX", "Javascript", "PHP" etc. and in each of those
folders I store BBEdit files with snippets of useful code in them.

I also use BBEdit clippings for smaller pieces of code.

Ideally what I want is an interface like Yojimbo's that would allow me
to store code samples, sort them, tag them etc. and still see the code
correctly colored like in BBEdit.

Currently I use BBEdit Disk Browsers which are workable but they don't
appear to allow searching on file names (or tags) and there is no
option for Favorites or smart folders.

So my question is, how do experienced coders keep their code
organized? Do you use Clippings exclusively, Disk Browsers or some
other method/software that you would recommend?

Regards and thanks in advance,

Pat

[Datatude]

Post by Patrick Gilmour
So my question is, how do experienced coders keep their code
organized? Do you use Clippings exclusively, Disk Browsers or some
other method/software that you would recommend?

I am only beginning to approach this question msyelf, and have been
playing with using a database (postgresql back end, Servoy front end)
for categorizing, noting where code blocks are used, establishing
dependencies, and so on. This is a work in progress.

I think I'll end up storing the actual chunks of code twice: once pasted
as plain text into a varchar database field (for quick copy&paste and
also so the code itself is searchable), and also as a BBEdit document
stored in a blob so that it can be opened, viewed and edited in BBEdit
and can be not only stored back to the database, but can be stored in
multiple db records (again, as blobs) to facilitate versioning. i.e.,
Not only will the applications I create be versioned, not only the
modules within those applications, but also the chunks of code within
modules, in database format where notations such as "compatible only
with PHP 4 and earlier" or "this change is necessary as of Servoy 3.5"
or "debugged to solve improper query results..." can be made for future
reference. A code library/change-log hybrid.

Further, I will be able to store not only the code chunks, not only a
history of changes made to each code chunk (and reasons why), but also
cross-link to what modules put those chunks to use. This way if I
discover a need (such as some new syntax for a new version of a
programming language, or compatibility with some plug-in, or whatever)
to revise a piece of code, I can see at a glance where it has been put
to use (and, hence, what modules of what applications need revision).

On the other hand, I'm also curious whether there is already a
frameworks out there for this sort of thing. Eclipse, perhaps? But,
AFAIK, Eclipse does not have a db back end, it uses XML ... so I wonder
whether it becomes possible to store something like BBEdit files within
the Eclipse IDE and whether it is possible to do anything such as search
by keywords or by actual code to locate snippets and chunks.

Anyone? Existing frameworks? Could Eclipse together with some existing
plug-in/extension save me from reinventing this wheel? (I'm only
beginning to gain even a rudimentary understanding of what Eclipse is
about & what the possibilities way beyond "for Java programmers" are)

good question, Pat, thanks,

kazar
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[Aaron Hsu]

Hello Patrick,

--On March 23, 2008 12:09:54 PM -0400 Patrick Gilmour

Post by Patrick Gilmour
So my question is, how do experienced coders keep their code
organized? Do you use Clippings exclusively, Disk Browsers or some
other method/software that you would recommend?

For myself, while I do use the Clippings feature a lot, I use it only
to store information which is not easily converted into a portable
library. That is, for most code that I write, if I am going to use it
more than once, either in another project or this one, I create some
sort of API for it so that I can just include it as a module to the
rest of my code. Fortunately, the work that I do makes this an easy
thing. So, I find that I don't have to use the Disk Browser or the like
very often. What I do use is the Clippings and stationary sets to do
some basic duplication, and for anything more complex, that required
dependencies or whatever, I use the features of my language to create
modules. I find clippings to be great for commonly used little snippets
of things that don't work well with modules or basic code abstractions.
For example, copyright and license declartions, or comment templates
are good candidates for this, and I find that these never vary enough
to require a lot of management.
--
Aaron Hsu <***@sacrideo.us> | Jabber: ***@jabber.org
``Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to
live at the expense of everybody else.'' - Frederic Bastiat

[Doug McNutt]

So my question is, how do experienced coders keep their code organized? Do you use Clippings exclusively, Disk Browsers or some other method/software that you would recommend?

I use a BBEdit worksheet to run my machine. (It's mostly because I still use MPW to run my classic Macs.)

The "snippets" are mostly shell scripts, including perl, that I can select and run right from the worksheet. I start each snippet with a tag line like this

#index:\t some_name_I_can_remember

There is an AppleScript that will scan the file and make "marks" that show in the Mark menu for each of the index lines. Often the snippets are little more than a call to the bbedit tool or a simple open command with a full path to something I'm working on. Other snippets are perl scripts that operate on the currently open BBEdit document. Still others call osascript << END to run AppleScripts that depend on environment variables. Simple build commands, specialized backups, scp to and from a server. . . . .

What frustrates me about BBEdit is that I can't display the marks alphabetically. (I got used to that in MPW where I can also redirect script output to >> "{Active}")
--
Applescript syntax is like English spelling:
Roughly, though not thoroughly, thought through.

[Rod Buchanan]

Post by Patrick Gilmour
Ideally what I want is an interface like Yojimbo's that would allow
me to store code samples, sort them, tag them etc. and still see the
code correctly colored like in BBEdit.

Not sure if this does everything you want, but I remember it being a
"featured pick" on Apple's site a while back:

http://myownapp.com/schnippselchen_app.html

--
Rod Buchanan
Kelly Supply / KDSI / ISCO
308 382-8764 x220

"War is only a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."
-- Thomas Mann

[Neil Lee]

Post by Patrick Gilmour
Ideally what I want is an interface like Yojimbo's that would allow
me to store code samples, sort them, tag them etc. and still see the
code correctly colored like in BBEdit.

I have absolutely zero experience with this, but there is a program
called Code Collector Pro that might work for you.

http://www.mcubedsw.com/software/codecollectorpro

There's also a light version that's free as well.

Neil

[Patrick Gilmour]

All,

Thanks for the interesting replies.

My personal skills and requirements mean I probably won't be building
a postgresql database to store code snippets anytime soon (or needing
to store perl scripts!) so for anyone else in my situation who just
wants a simple, application-like code repository:

-I had overlooked BBEdit Stationery. This looks like a great option
for storing complete page templates.

-I'll continue to use Clippings for small pieces of code

-Schnippselchen and Code Collector Pro both look quite good but the
former weirdly stores its database inside the app package and the
latter is a nice app but it does almost nothing that Yojimbo can't do
- and it costs 20Euros. Also, neither are Applescript-able.

Yojimbo is Applescript-able, tag-friendly, works with Spotlight and is
always open (on my machine), so it would be the ideal, for me at
least, if there was some way of getting it to perform syntax coloring.
I doubt, however, Barebones would want to put resources into this.

How about a Applescript-able, tag-friendly, works with Spotlight Disk
Browser instead? A bit like Clippings on steroids?

Thanks again,

Pat

[Norman ONeil]

Hi,

I recently upgraded to 8.7.2 and for some reason my multi-file search
for a text string doesn't seem to function anymore. Any thoughts
would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance


Norman O'Neil